evanz784
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Depression and veganism - 2006/01/06 16:29
I've noticed that my friends who have gone exclusively vegan, even if they take vitamins, seem more moody and depressed. Has anyone else noticed this?
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dtun3Z
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/06 19:54
I'm interested in knowing what kind of health issues your friends were having. I've been trying to read up as much as I can on vegetarian and vegan diets over the past couple of years.
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Stanley
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/07 00:26
You are getting the causation arrow backward. They are not depressed because they've "gone 'vegan'". They went "vegan" because they're depressed, mentally ill people.
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Daddyo152
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/07 08:30
What on Earth can you do though, girl? I've been following this from the sart, of course, and to tell you truth, judging from Rube's replies I'm not even sure Rube read a single article you brought here.
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evanz784
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/07 10:48
Well I'm just thinking maybe there's something vegans aren't getting, because seriously everyone I've known who's gone vegan has gotten really fucking depressed.
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evanz784
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/07 11:45
I'd also like to point out that sooner or later every vegan I've known changes back to an omnivorous diet after all the health problems caused by being one.
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dtun3Z
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/07 17:31
Generally, I agree with you. However, any special diets may be something that people use to cover their eating disorders. If they begin to think that certain foods are "evil" or "toxic" and they get too obssessed with it, I think it could form into an eating disorder.
I don't think anorexia is a lifestyle choice at all (though it may have started out that way). It's a disease and people need help to get better, and may never be cured.
Vegetarianism/Veganism is a lifestyle choice. I think that was probably what you meant but I wanted to make that clear.
I disagree with you that there is no such thing as an eating disorder.
Those people who have to live through the hell of having them (losing teeth, losing hair, becoming infertile, suffering deficiencies, thinking they're fat even though they're under 100 lbs.) are not choosing to be that way.
Have you ever seen the skeletal images of people who are around 85 lbs. and still consider themselves to be huge? That is a psychological problem, as well as a medical issue.
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dtun3Z
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/07 19:28
<snip>
Yeah that's true. <snip>
I have heard of adults and males being affected before. I'm thinking it's not necessarily the vegan diet that's the risk factor, but non-mainstream diets in general that may be a risk factor: if only because it puts someone's focus more on finding and avoiding certain foods than other people.
<Snip>
The vegetarians claim they have a more diverse diet than meat eaters because they've explored more plant options than most meat eaters ever do. I'm thinking that is probably true, since they need to be able to create meals that don't get boring instead of just doubling up on traditional "side dishes".
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Erichwanh
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/08 00:07
I don't understand why you die-hard meatarians keep ignoring the evidence.
Must be your addiction.
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Erichwanh
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/08 06:09
'Dr. Katherine Milton, professor of anthropology at the University of California, has found that dental patterns among fossils of early humans supports evidence of a high quality, plant-based diet, closely related to the ninety-four percent plant and fruit diet of chimpanzees. |+ ..
Paleolithic humans had some tools to hunt with, but they were not as useful as tools used by the modern hunter-gatherer. Professor
Jared Diamond explains how the diet of early humans depended on their tools. He describes how he was invited on a hunt by a tribe in
New Guinea that retained Stone Age "technology" and habits.
Surprisingly, after an entire day of hunting, the tribe returned with only two baby birds, a few frogs, and mushrooms.
Although the men of the tribe frequently boasted of the large animals they had killed, when pressed for details, they admitted that large animals were killed only a few times in a hunter's career. These peoples' stone tools were far more advanced than the stone tools found on prehistoric sites, so Professor Diamond thinks it unlikely that prehistoric hunters could have enjoyed a much higher success rate than present day hunter-gatherer tribes
This suggests that since a modern hunter-gathering group was not very successful, then it was highly unlikely for our ancestors to be able catch even one large prey with their limited equipment. Like the New Guinea tribe, groups such as the Kalahari bushman and the Australian aborigines gather much of their food in the form of roots, fruit, nuts and other nutritious plant products. The proportions by weight of vegetable food and animal food in their diet compared with modern humans are about 81.3% vegetable and 18.7% animal.'
http://webpub.allegheny.edu/employee/r/rmumme/FS101/Research
Papers/StephaniePeske.html
'Anthropologically speaking, humans were high consumers of calcium until the onset of the Agricultural Age, 10,000 years ago. Current calcium intake is one-quarter to one-third that of our evolutionary diet and, if we are genetically identical to the Late Paleolithic Homo sapiens, we may be consuming a calcium-deficient diet our bodies cannot adjust to by physiologic mechanisms.
The anthropological approach says, with the exception of a few small changes related to genetic blood diseases, that humans are basically identical biologically and medically to the hunter-gatherers of the late
Paleolithic Era.17 During this period, calcium content of the diet was much higher than it is currently. Depending on the ratio of animal to plant foods, calcium intake could have exceeded 2000 mg per day.17
Calcium was largely derived from wild plants, which had a very high calcium content; *animal protein played a small role*, and the use of dairy products did not come into play until the Agricultural Age 10,000 years ago. Compared to the current intake of approximately 500 mg per day for women age 20 and over in the United States,18 hunter-gatherers had a significantly higher calcium intake and apparently much stronger bones. As late as 12,000 years ago, Stone Age hunters had an average of 17-percent more bone density (as measured by humeral cortical thickness). Bone density also appeared to be stable over time with an apparent absence of osteoporosis.17
High levels of calcium excretion via renal losses are seen with both high salt and high protein diets, in each case at levels common in the
United States.10,11 ..
The only hunter-gatherers that seemed to fall prey to bone loss were the aboriginal Inuit (Eskimos). Although their physical activity level was high, their osteoporosis incidence exceeded even present-day levels in the United States. The Inuit diet was high in phosphorus and protein and low in calcium.20
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/calcium4-2.html
*emphasis added
Again;
"Evidence suggests that eating even small amounts of animal- based foods is linked at least for many individuals to significantly higher rates of cancers and cardiovascular diseases typically found in the United States."
'The Cornell-China-Oxford Project is a massive survey of more than 10,000 families in mainland China and Taiwan designed to study diet, lifestyle and disease across the far reaches of China. By investigating simultaneously more diseases and more dietary characteristics than any other study to date, the project has generated the most comprehensive database in the world on the multiple causes of disease. Much of the research behind the pyramid is based on the China project's research findings.
..
"This pyramid reflects the growing body of research that suggests that Americans will not reduce their rate of cancers, cardiovascular disease and other chronic, degenerative diseases until they shift their diets away from animal-based foods to plant-based foods," Campbell said. "Evidence suggests that eating even small amounts of animal- based foods is linked at least for many individuals to significantly higher rates of cancers and cardiovascular diseases typically found in the United States." Further, he reported last year, merely eating some low-fat foods or complying with current
U.S. dietary recommendations is unlikely to prevent much disease. The dietary recommendations, Campbell said, do not go far enough in reducing the total fat content of the diet, or, more to the point, in advocating the exchange of foods of animal origin for foods of plant origin.
..
"The nutrient composition of the traditional rural Asian diet is very similar to the Mediterranean diet in that both are largely plant-based and both pyramids recommend that meat be consumed no more than once a month or more often in very small amounts," said T. Colin Campbell,
Cornell professor of nutritional biochemistry, co-chair of the conference and director of the Cornell-China-Oxford
Project. "However, the Asian diet, which is significantly lower in total fat, may prove to be an even more healthful diet," he added. '
'Ethnographic parallels with modern hunter-gatherer communities have been taken to show that the colder the climate, the greater the reliance on meat. There are sound biological and economic reasons for this, not least in the ready availability of large amounts of fat in arctic mammals.
From this, it has been deduced that the humans of the glacial periods were primarily hunters, while plant foods were more important during the interglacials.
http://www.phancocks.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/naturalhistory/devensian.htm
'According to Tuttle, the first substantive information on chimp diets was provided by Nissen in 1931 (p.75). In 1930 Nissen spent 75 days of a 3-month period tracking and observing chimps. He made direct unquantified observations and examined fecal deposits and leftovers at feeding sites. He also found "no evidence that they ate honey, eggs or animal prey" - this observation may have been too limited due to seasonal variations in the chimp diet.
In Reynolds and Reynolds (1965), Tuttle says that a 300 hour study of Budongo Forest chimps over an 8-month period revealed
"no evidence for avian eggs, termites or vertebrates", although they thought that insects formed 1% of their diet (p.81).
In another study of Budongo Forest chimps from 1966 to 1967,
Sugiyama did not observe "meat-eating or deliberate captures of arthropods", although he reported that "the chimpanzees did ingest small insects that infested figs" (p.82).
Tuttle says that later observations at Budongo by Suzuki revealed meat eating. Where the earlier observations wrong, or incomplete, or maybe an accurate reflection of their diet at the time? Did the chimps change their diet later? We do not know. Chimps sometimes change their diets on a monthly basis. A study of chimps at the
Kabogo Point region from 1961 to 1962 by Azuma and Toyoshima, revealed that they witnessed "only one instance of chimpanzees ingesting animal food, vis. termites or beetles from rotten wood." (p.87).
From 1963 to 1964, similar observations were found in Kasakati
Basin by a Kyoto University team, and when Izawa and Itani published in 1966 they reported "no chimpanzees eating insects, vertebrates, avian eggs, soil or tree leaves and foundno trace in the 14 stools that they inspected " (p.86). In contrast Kawabe and Suzuki found the Kasakati chimps hunting in the same year (p.88), although only
14 of 174 fecal samples contained traces of insects and other animal foods. So perhaps these differing observations are due to seasonal variation, or even local differences (cultural variation) in feeding preferences - Tuttle does not reveal which. Maybe some of the chimps groups are 'vegetarian', while other are not. But see the Kortlandt observations below before believing that all chimps are meat-eaters.
..
Kortlandt states that predation by chimpanzees on vertebrates is undoubtedly a rather rare phenomenon among rainforest-dwelling populations of chimpanzees. Kortlandt lists the reasons given below in his evidence.
# the absence (or virtual absence) of animal matter in the digestive systems of hundreds of hunted, dissected or otherwise investigated cases
# the rarity of parasites indicating carnivorous habits
# rarity of pertinent field observations
# the responses when he placed live as well as dead potential prey animals along the chimpanzee paths at Beni (in the poorer environments of the savanna landscape however, predation on vertebrates appears to be much more common)
Kortlandt concludes this section on primate diets by saying that the wealth of flora and insect fauna in the rain-forest provides both chimpanzees and orang-utans with a dietary spectrum that seems wide enough to meet their nutritional requirements, without hunting and killing of vertebrates being necessary. It is in the poorer nutritional environments, where plant sources may be scarce or of low quality where carnivorous behaviour arises. Even then he says that the meat obtained are minimal and perhaps insufficient to meet basic needs. Finally he adds "The same conclusion applies, of course, to hominids . . . it is strange that most palaeoanthropologists have never been willing to accept the elementary facts on this matter that have emerged from both nutritional science and primate research." ..'
http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/polemics.htm
"Evidence suggests that eating even small amounts of animal- based foods is linked at least for many individuals to significantly higher rates of cancers and cardiovascular diseases typically found in the United States."
The Heme Iron Problem
Heme (blood) iron, cancer, and cardiovascular disease.
Iron encourages production of free radicals which can damage DNA and presumably increase cancer risk. In a study of over 14,000 individuals, high iron intake and high iron body stores were both positively linked to the risk of colon cancer. Higher levels of iron were associated with higher incidence of colon polyps, possible forerunners of colon tumors. However, cancer patients themselves had low levels of stored iron, indicating that cancer itself can deplete iron stores. [1]
Controversy has surrounded the question as to whether too much iron in your diet raises your risk for heart disease. A new study from the
Harvard University School of Public Health brings new insight to the debate.
Lasting for 4 years, this research involved more than 50,000 male health professionals. It was found that total iron intake was not associated with heart disease risk. But the source of the iron was the principle factor.
High levels of heme iron raised risk for heart disease twofold. Heme iron is the type of iron found in meat, chicken and fish.
Plant foods contain non-heme iron which appears to not be associated with risk for heart attack. Traditionally, many nutritionists used to consider non-heme iron to be inferior to the iron found in animal products, because non-heme iron is somewhat less well absorbed. But new evidence suggests that non-heme iron seems to be preferable.
When the body is low in iron, it can increase absorption of non-heme iron, and it can reduce adsorption when it already has sufficient amounts.
The heme iron in meats tends to pass quickly right through the adsorption mechanism, thus entering the blood stream whether it is needed or not.
Since vegetarians generally have adequate iron intake, it is clear that non-heme iron can easily meet nutritional needs. Also, plant iron doesn't create the health risks of heme iron.
Iron increases heart disease risks because heme iron acts as a pro-oxidant, causing LDL-cholesterol -- the 'bad' cholesterol -- to react with oxygen. This reaction is involved in the formation of plaques in the arteries and therefore increases one's risk of cardiovascular problems. [2]
[1] Nelson, Davis, Suffer, Sobin, Kikeenddl, Bowen. Body iron stores and risk of colonic neoplasia. J Natl Canc Inst 1994; 86:455-60
[2] Ascherio, Willett, Rimm, Giovannucci, Stampger. Dietary iron intake and risk of coronary disease among men. Circulation 1994; 89:969-74
http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm
See chart of foods listed by descending quantities of iron at the above link.
"Evidence suggests that eating even small amounts of animal- based foods is linked at least for many individuals to significantly higher rates of cancers and cardiovascular diseases typically found in the United States."
Animal product consumption and mortality because of all causes combined, coronary heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and cancer in Seventh-day Adventists.
Snowdon DA.
Division of Epidemiology, School of Public Health, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis.
This report reviews, contrasts, and illustrates previously published findings from a cohort of 27,529 California Seventh-day Adventist adults who completed questionnaires in 1960 and were followed for mortality between 1960 and 1980. Within this population, meat consumption was positively associated with mortality because of all causes of death combined (in males), coronary heart disease (in males and females), and diabetes (in males). Egg consumption was positively associated with mortality because of all causes combined (in females), coronary heart disease (in females), and cancers of the colon (in males and females combined) and ovary. Milk consumption was positively associated with only prostate cancer mortality, and cheese consumption did not have a clear relationship with any cause of death. The consumption of meat, eggs, milk, and cheese did not have negative associations with any of the causes of death investigated.
PMID: 3046303 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Or tear raw animal flesh.
See; http://www.iol.ie/~creature/BiologicalAdaptations.htm
Why should they?
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Leehro
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/08 10:43
Yes, you enjoy misfortune of humans while pretending to be compassionate for animals. I don't expect the light to go on in your head about what's wrong with that picture because you're mentally ill.
Fortunately, medical professionals tend to be a lot more compassionate than AR/vegan activists.
Offer a kid the choice between meat and broccoli and he's more likely to take the meat.
Nobody forces anyone to eat certain kinds of food. Most institutions offer choices, and many even cater to individuals with specific religious, cultural, or medical needs. ARAs/vegans are the only group attempting to force anything on anyone. Meat sells because that's what people want to eat.
Tastes aren't trivial. Most of them are formed over many, many years of evolution.
Treat them the way you *think* they treat animals? Two wrongs make it right, huh.
Why can't you just learn to be tolerant of others, pencil dick?
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dtun3Z
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/08 15:21
<snip>
It's not really even about taste. Yeah, meat is tasty. *L* Still, I think the major reason people eat meat around the world is because it's nutritious.
Humans are natural omnivores. It's the way our ancestors have lived for a long, long time.
You don't rage and complain when a raccoon eats Crawfish, insects, birds, eggs, fish, and rabbits. Why should you rage and complain when a human does it?
Veganism is a non-mainstream choice of diet with risks of improper nutrition if done incorrectly, and some who do "all the right things" still end up having to go off the diet.
I had a very good friend who was a vegetarian (not even a vegan) and she ended up with an iron deficiency, and her doctor ordered her to eat a little meat every day. She said it grossed her out (understandably) but she did it and her health improved.
Whether your body's natural tendency is to be omnivorous or not is not a choice. It's part of humanity's natural history.
Whether or not you eat an omnivorous diet is a choice, however.
Veganism is a choice that is non-mainstream because most people follow their natural tendencies.
The reason then, that I said killing animals for meat is a personal choice whether you consider it immoral or not, is that if it bothers you (or at least if current methods bother you), you shouldn't contribute to it.
Now you're just being silly. You're comparing the rape of a child to the humane slaughter of a cow.
Well since I'm pro life I certainly don't agree with that but even most liberals I know wouldn't want to harm babies that were already born or elderly people who can't defend themselves. However, I could be wrong and the morality of most of them could have departed from what I hold to be right and wrong even further than I'd ever imagined.
I don't like it when animals are killed just for tv shows either. That
"Fear Factor" show is awful, for example. I was flipping channels and saw this exotic animal I was considering buying as an arthropod pet one day, a whip scorpion (no sting) that's from Thailand. This girl chewed it up for a chance to get some money. An interesting and exotic animal crushed for mass entertainment. Sickening.
In the case of the Real World show however, I think there was already going to be the luau, and they were just scheduled to attend it.
Are you against factory farms, or all farms that raise animals for meat?
I don't think that I have to make any excuses or apologize for what I eat. I see nothing wrong with it. I also don't care what you or other people eat. I feel like everyone should follow their own principles and desires.
You're the one who wants to throw people in jail for eating meat. If that's not policing other people's personal lives, I don't know what is.
The missionary was a human being. You keep trying your hardest to pretend like human beings are morally equivalent to other animals.
Maybe you believe that, and I suppose you'll believe whatever you want, but I certainly disagree.
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Leehro
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/08 19:23
You have the RIGHT, but WHEN did any of the individuals you named wish yuo to drop dead or suffer bodily harm in any form or fashion?
You pussy! You've been asked repeatedly to back up your wild-assed claims, and you can't. You've been asked repeatedly to address issues, and you won't. Then you resort to the lowest and most base insults, wishing harm -- indeed, DEATH -- upon others.
If you cannot support your claims or address issues, perhaps you should tone down your overheated rhetoric until you can. Wishing harm upon others like you did doesn't score you ANY points. Rubystars is hardly a troll, and her questions about your twisted desires for Rick's demise are fair. She deserves better answers than you've given, but I think she's wise enough not to expect them from a hateful prat like you.
Your hateful attitude mixed with your misplaced pride will not let you admit that you're just plain wrong. Rubystars is a very nice young lady.
Her questions were fair and deserve a better answer than this. Try again, you hate-filled twerp.
Logical fallacy of appealing to popularity. It's also not truly a
"reality." It *is* your opinion, but you've already demonstrated yourself to be misanthropic (extremely so). Your spiteful bias isn't shared universally.
Tastes are not petty. It took millions of years of evolution for people to acquire them. You're not going to thwart all that evolution with a wave of your magic wand.
Bullshit. You and other animal activists are considered a joke by the mainstream. You're marginalized. You're not even in the mainstream of leftist thought, you little putz.
It's a bigger one for humans. All that evolution and taste. We're predators, animals are our prey whether they're wild or domesticated.
More people take her seriously because her arguments aren't laced with threats and wishes for harm. Your arguments aren't even worthy of consideration since they lack facts and reason, all you have are your hateful wishes for others.
You moron, that's not a non-issue. The LP, like other political parties, respects the political processes of our government which afford protections to political minorities. That's especially true in their case since they ARE a political minority. BTW, maybe you need to brush up on the LP-USA's position on children and sex:
[W]e call for the repeal of all laws that restrict anyone, including children, from engaging in voluntary exchanges of goods, services, or information regarding human sexuality, reproduction, birth control, or related medical or biological technologies.
http://tinyurl.com/u7xh
There has long been a faction in the LP which supports abolishing distinctions between minor and adult with respect to the law. The effect would make child pornography legal, as well as sexual relations between consulting "minors" and adults. That side has won out in the LP's platform.
*No* political party says that, asswipe.
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harpua13
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/09 04:25
Spending your pocket change again? Should I quote some of your replies to "Lieslie" from earlier this year?
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Mr Isaka
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/09 05:55
I think the ones with mental orders are totalitarians -- dietary fascists -- who'd ban meat altogether. You're certainly intolerant, but
I think your intolerance is a symptom of deeper issues.
I look down on you. WAY down.
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dtun3Z
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/09 13:01
That's not very compassionate. What's the point in having a respect for life (all life) if you tell someone that you wish they would drop dead from a heart attack?
I may get flamed for saying this, but isn't a human life of more value than a cow's? It is in my opinion. Why would you be happy if Rick died but sad when a cow died?
I've been reading/posting to this group on and off and I know Rick posts things that make people angry and seems to stir people up, but you shouldn't let him get under your skin. He just has a different opinion than other people here, even if he is deliberately trying to get reactions.
He's correct that animals die from all kinds of food production. Even when I went to go pick wild dewberries with my dad in the field, we had to wash all the caterpillars and other bugs off of them when we got home. A few berries were discarded because I saw caterpillars crawl out of them. I may have even eaten some of them without knowing it, though I think most of the berries were clean (I broke many of them in half to make sure *L*).
A lot of the produce we buy at the store is also contaminated with insects that we may unknowingly eat. And yeah, sometimes rats and mice get chopped up during harvesting and processing of grains.
I don't think it's as big of a deal as Rick makes it out to be (I mean, we are talking pests, mostly, and compassionate to animals or not, pests need to be dealt with or they will ruin our food and spread disease). Personally I feel that vegetable production is at least less directly harmful to animals, not that it doesn't directly harm them, but that the intent isn't to harm animals (just a thought). Also we all need to eat plants to live and we don't all need to eat meat to live. So it's not like we can stop supporting the vegetable farmers altogether, and they do an important job, not only feeding us but also people in third world countries.
Also a lot of food is grown for animal feed and I'm sure that a certain amount of insects/rats/mice get killed in that process so I don't see how choosing to eat meat reduces cruelty, especially when the direct source of the food is an animal's death. Even "organic" or
"free range" meat producers need suitable fields for grazing.
It is wrong however to say that your lifestyle is free from animal use/exploitation. We all rely on animals to one degree or another.
Vegans IMO probably harm animals the least, despite Ritter's points having some truth to them.
Why would it be hilarious for the medical staff to laugh at him? I doubt they'd be laughing at him anyway. They'd be treating their patient. Also they would have to do what he told them to do, as a patient has a right to refuse any treatment they want.
Meat eating is the way that humans have lived since before we were humans. I don't really see that as "forcing" it on the kids. I'm sure a lot of parents who tell their kids to eat their meat even if they don't want to just want their kids to be nourished and are concerned for them. It's a parent's job to help their child grow up to be as strong and healthy as possible, and most people grew up learning that
2-3 servings of meat daily was a dietary need.
It's hard to un-program that, especially when you get the occasional
children of the proper nutrition because of an overly restrictive diet, and ended up with a death or severe sickness as a result.
Now most of us in this group realize that a vegetarian, or even a vegan diet, can be nourishing and healthy, if done correctly. That's all well and good, but we can't expect everyone in the world to understand that. You can only control what you eat, and what you decide to do.
Public schools and universities don't grab people and shove meat down their throats by force. There is such a thing as a bagged lunch. In a university, you can just go off campus and head to a veg. restaurant if you want for lunch. Most people want to eat meat and therefore meat is provided there. If meat wasn't provided, then people would have to go off campus for lunch or bring a bagged lunch, because most people don't want to go vegetarian. That would be catering to the minority at the expense of the majority if meat wasn't available. Now if there's ever a time when meat eating is in the minority, then there may be a better case for not having it available.
Advertising shouldn't bother you as much as it does! Most people enjoy going to restaurants and eating "Kentucky fried chicken." or a flame-grilled "Whataburger" or a cheesy "Domino's pizza." Therefore there will continue to be commercials promoting these foods as long as there is a strong market for them. If the commercials bother you so much, does that mean they're tempting you? Change the channel for a second or turn off the tv, if you don't want to be tempted to eat those things. If those foods hold no appeal for you, then I don't see how they can be any more annoying than the "1-800-Collect" commercials that are starting to get very overplayed.
We all use animals to one degree or another. I don't think it makes someone a terrible person if they want to eat meat. They're just like most people around the world, and through history. They've grown up with it, acquired a strong taste for it, etc. And to be honest most of the animals don't suffer as much as PETA would have you believe anyway (I do acknowledge that they suffer). Even "Factory farms" have the animals grazing in open fields for most of their lives until they get to the finishing lots. Now I fully understand not wanting to support the slaughter of animals for meat but the only one you can control is you.
That makes you sound like a fanatic. Vegans and even vegetarians have a bad reputation for being fanatical, for hating humans and loving animals more than humans. Wouldn't it be much better to ignore him, or to be kind to him, rather than to seem so vicious?
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ElPrez
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/09 18:20
ROTFLMAO!! What a fucking liar, you are!
I can hardly wait until you get your first heart attack.
I will jump for joy when you suffer and drop dead!
It will be hilarious for the medical staff to laugh at you and tell you that they don't have to be told by YOU what to do.
You anti-vegetarians force meat on your kids. You force it on people in public schools and universities and government. Your advertising is forced in our face everywhere.
And you force YOUR beliefs and YOUR behaviors on animals by forcing THEM to do what you want -- suffer and die in a cage -- for your trivial little lust for burgers.
Throwing you in prison for the rest of your life, or leaving you to die if you get a heart attack or stroke, is the ONLY way to get your type to get this point through your heads.
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ElPrez
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/09 22:16
Because it is MY RIGHT to have compassion or not for whomever I want, because Rick Etter, Usual Suspect, Radical Moderate, and Dutch all do the same. They
Because it is MY RIGHT to do that. *I* do not hurt anybody by wishing anti-vegetarians like them dead. ALL that matters to THEM is THEIR right to torture and kill for no other reason than it tastes or feels good, even when they have plenty of choices. Their lives have no value.
THEY claim to be "pro-human". That makes them the GREATEST HYPOCRITES of ALL, because THEY ARE FURIOUSLY DETERMINED TO DO NOTHING BUT
INSULT AND GIVE ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS, who are HUMAN BEINGS, ARE
HARD TIME AND MAKE THEIR LIVES POOR AND MISERABLE.
Good. So then if I wish Rick Etter dead, or if some person wanted the entire human race wiped off the earth (such persons do exist, but none of them want humans exterminated for the benefit of animals -- usually they have some abstract religious reason), then THAT should not get under your skin, right?
So please do NOT pretend that ANYthing *I* say "bothers" you.
Because, based upon your anything goes attitude, I know that it does not, and that for you to say otherwise is a lie.
Face the hard reality: EVERY kid is forced into existence by their parents. Even people of the most diverse political opinions agree on that.
No. The animals are in the majority. Their PAIN is in the majority
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Erichwanh
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/09 22:40
'An American study found that organically grown food contained much higher average levels of minerals than non-organic food. For example, there was 63 per cent more calcium, 73 per cent more iron, 125 per cent more potassium and 60 per cent more zinc in the organically produced foods. There was also 29 per cent less of the toxic element mercury.' http://www.ekolantbruk.se/PDFer/Myth%20and%20reality.pdf
B12 is present in non-cobalt depleted 'cide-sterilized healthy soil, and taken up by plants. Enteric bacteria in a healthy (non-antibiotic treated) small intestine also produce vitamin B12, as long as the plants we eat contain cobalt - which is also taken up from soil.
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cmchast3
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re:Depression and veganism - 2006/01/10 04:09
Nope, but the reverse is well documented.
http://www.ecologos.org/anxiety.htm
Laurie
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