Death of Rats
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The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/27 14:58
http://www.nexicom.net/~wolfz/Trapping.html
This is from a professional trapper's web site. Any comments?
Trapping animals is done humanely. The use of connibears, and snares alongwith leg traps are very humane. Connibears kill instantly as well as snares. Leg traps on the other hand only hold the animal there by the foot not the leg, till you can arrive to shoot it. They are not suffering any pain whatsoever. Walking up on a coyote or a fox that is sleeping after he has finished eating all the bait you left to catch him, doesn't show thathe is in any hurry to leave. All the fox and coyote I have ever leg trapped only lay there watching me as I approached. I even woke the odd one up as I got real close. I have never seen an animals leg chewed or mutilated either.
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archenlander
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/27 18:23
The captive type of trap does not physically harm animals. But what happens when the stinking coward with a gun reaches the scene? Bang it's dead, but it's had a good life, so what the hell.
Ah! so you do it for the animals. My mistake, I thought you did it for the money, and a smattering of pleasure.
You mean like getting rid of one beef farmer would save the lives of thousands of innocent animals? I'm all for that!
I do care about, and unlike you, have read the story.
Go away, read it again and tell me which traps in 'The Story' do not harm animals.
You 'almost' tell as many lies as ~~jonnie~~.
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KTG
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/27 23:02
Sometimes trapping one animal, saves the lives of hundreds of other animals.
You don't even care about the story.
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paxcal
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/28 00:56
According to you, yes, but I don't agree with your illogical reasoning that compels you to believe animals benefit by being born. The point I'm raising with you here, is that you claim vegans do nothing to help animals, yet you also claim that they cause more deaths by eating vegetables than they would by eating meat, but this is obviously a lie according to you, because, as you've admitted, veganism provides a massive benefit to wildlife by killing it and allowing more wildlife to come into being.
Your argument against vegans shoots itself in the foot leaving you with no criticism against them at all.
Well? Was that question a little too tough for you, David?
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KTG
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/28 05:14
1) is bullshit. IF you were correct--which you're not--if $900K is a benefit, then we experienced a loss prior to getting $900K, if getting a helicopter is a benefit, then we experienced a loss prior to getting a helicopter, for everything that could be a benefit, we experience a loss prior to getting it, for everything we could do that is a benefit, we experience a loss before we do it.
LOL! The meat industry doesn't "take it away." It provides it. Grain production "takes it away".
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KTG
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/28 05:45
I doubt that I'll ever believe that one Ray. I believe there would be at least one or two dishonest "ARAs" in the ngs, who would pose as "AR" opponents to try to gain the trust of the majority who really are opponents, and would use themselves to create the image that "AR" opponents are inconsiderate, childish, rude, and extremely dishonest. They would pretend to be "AR" opponents by being insulting to those who openly support "AR", but would never produce anything that actually makes the concept of "AR" look bad. The Gonad fits the bill perfectly on all of those things. So, I have several reasons to believe he is an "ARA", and absolutely no reasons at all to believe he is not one.
Maybe. But of course you couldn't admit it if he does. And maybe you wouldn't even know it if he does. But I believe he works with you none the less.
Well, I can certainly believe that he doesn't have an actual job, other than whatever he might get for the time he spends in the ngs.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Gonad gets some $$$ from PeTA or some other "AR" organization. In fact I'd be more surprised to learn that he doesn't. Either way though, I expect that his wife brings home the tofu at their house--if he's really married that is.
I've lost ***WAY*** too much time to the Gonad over the years.
And in all of the hours I've spent in exchanges with him, he has never provided an interesting thought, or bit of information, or explanation, or anything to make the time worth spending. On the other hand, he has trolled me into ***WASTING*** many hours by lying to me, and about me, to myself and to everyone else. Gonad is nothing but a parasite who contributes nothing of any value, and steals time from whoever he can get to waste their time on him. Have you gained anything of value from the
Gonad? If not, do you think anyone has?
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paxcal
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/28 07:06
You continually lie when claiming vegans do nothing to help animals, even though many of us here have proved you wrong just as continually. To prove what
I'm writing is correct, let's consider your argument which insists animals benefit from being born, combine it with your other argument which insists vegans cause massive collateral deaths, and look at the result. If vegans are causing massive collateral deaths, then it is only right to assume we are providing a massive benefit to the animals which will inevitably replace them by being born.
That being so, your initial argument which insists vegans do nothing to help animals must be a lie, so why do you do it?
Don't let him off so easily, Ray. He's as big a liar and hypocrite as the rest of them.
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KTG
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/28 10:05
Monday night I smelled something coming from under my house that smelled like piss, again. Thinking it was probably a large opossum, I set a Havahart trap, baiting it with a chunk of sardine. Nothing in the trap the next couple of nights, but Thursday night there was a small opossum in it. I took the damn thing to a local national park, and let it go by a creek. It ran up the creek and that's the last I saw of it.
I didn't make any money from the situation, and the animal wasn't hurt at all. People do stuff like that all the time. I expect to do it again, and hopefully soon...that little one didn't stink enough to be what I smelled, so I believe there's still at least one large one making itself at home under my home.
I still believe the Gonad is a dishonest "ARA", and you guys are working together.
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studboyx
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/28 14:52
No room for debate here.
It is clear cut.
All traps are barbaric.
All people who use them are evil perverted cowards
End of story.
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KTG
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/28 18:56
If that's true then eating grain fed meat provides even more massive benefit, to wildlife and farm animals both.
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paxcal
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/28 22:42
Why would anyone have to explain something as daft as that to get to to realise the flaw in your logic here?
Look at your argument in proper logical form to see that life per se cannot be a benefit.
1) if life is a benefit, then we experienced a loss prior to being born
2) we cannot experience a loss prior to being born therefore
3) life is not a benefit or, in contradiction to 3
4) life is a benefit
if x, then y not y therefore not x
If 1 and 4 are true, we experienced a loss prior to being born because life is a benefit, but 2 says we cannot experience a loss prior to being born, so
1, 2, and 4 amount to a contradiction because they cannot all be true. But, if 1 and 2 are true, 4 would be false, meaning life is not a benefit. This proves that the original conclusion 3 follows from 1 and
2 and is a valid conclusion drawn from the premises.
I have, with logic. The only way to refute my conclusion (3) is to attack one one of the premises, because the logic is sound. Which premise would you like to dismiss first, Dave?
It allows more animals to get the chance to experience life by replacing the animals which are killed by the farmer, so this should appeal to you.
*Whatever* life they get they are lucky to get it...even if it's only six weeks like a fryer.
David Harrison - 09/04/1999
Life is not a benefit, but taking it away intentionally for personal gain is still wrong nevertheless.
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paxcal
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/29 03:17
Hell no, Ray. I wasn't admonishing you in the least, but rather warning you of David's guile. He likes to play the victim suffering from the same ignorance vegans suffer
Jonathan Ball. While gaining your sympathy for his shared position he invariably succeeds in gaining a few concessions from the unaware along the way only to throw them back in their faces later on when he ups the pace a bit. That's why I mentioned that, "He's as big a liar and hypocrite as the rest of them."
I think the misunderstanding here is that my style of writing is sometimes too aggressive, even when I rest up and make conversation with my friends here. It's only when I re-read my posts that I can see what I'm trying to explain to you, so let me give you an example.
It starts off with Zakhar making a most innocent comment,
"I'm early forties, and happy with it." I quite jovially chimed in saying, "Wow! That's a lie."
From then on Zak seemed quite defensive, or at least
I thought so from looking at his reply, and I could see why when re-reading my post, because it did look as if I was attacking him personally. Realising this, I went through quite a lengthy explanation of what I was talking about, because I was starting to feel awkward, but even that looks like another attack when I read it again. Have a look (below). If it weren't for the occasional wink 
you'd never know I wasn't *still* attacking him.
[start]
Not that bit. The other bit where you said you were happy being in your early 40's. I'm only 39 and 21 months old, and
I for one hate the thought of heading toward 50. Fess up; you hate it too. You might be "happy" with the financial and family well-being middle age brings, but you don't fool me when you say you're happy being aged 40+. Not unless you've still got most of your hair, so I might be wrong. 
[end]
So I'm sorry if I came across like that, Ray. It's my fault.
David isn't as stupid as he tries to make out, but part of his act is to convince you he is, so watch him closer than you do your own wallet.
He's finished, and he knows it. Lies, distortions, denials, hypocrisy: he's full of them.
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studboyx
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/29 07:25
Your admonishment is accepted Derek.
The posting does come over as rather limp. It's my Yorkshire nature, free with our money and always willing to extend the hand of friendship. If you have ever visited Yorkshire you will know that's a load of crap.
Still, it was a bad posting and I put my hands up to the fact.
Incidentally that's more than cocoa pop jonnie will ever do - admit when he is wrong.
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archenlander
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/29 08:16
Clearly David, we are miles apart, we can generate a long thread with little gain either way In my experience the argument will end on a sour note.
To lighten up the situation I will withdraw my last comment, but I did say 'Almost'.
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coolhandluke
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/29 10:44
NO, Fuckwit. That crapola about $900K and helicopters follows from YOUR logic, not Dreck's. YOUR fuckwitted, insane logic is what dictates that the "loss" occurs if one never gets to have the "benefit".
You stupid, STUPID fuck.
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KTG
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/29 13:19
It depends on the particular situation. For example: if you catch a smaller animal like a muskrat in a trap made for a larger animal like a fox, it will mutilate its leg. I've done some trapping, and have seen legs that were cut up, and bruised horribly, and seen bone broken so that the only thing restraining the animal was some tendon. Then again I've seen some examples where there appeared to be no leg damage at all. A person who is a good trapper and knows which traps to use, and has the proper traps to use for the particular animals, and knows how to set and bait them so they don't end up catching the wrong type of animal in the wrong type of trap, could be very successful at not causing animals to suffer. And as he pointed out, the "correct" connibear for the job kills animals instantly by breaking their back and neck. But again, the wrong connibear can cause a good deal of suffering. I saw a opossum that a guy caught in a trap that was too small for the job, and it didn't kill it. The opossum could mover around and was totally conscious. The guy had to kill it himself. It all depends on the situation. It's quite impressive that so many people in these ngs appear to believe some things are always bad, or are always good, when it's so very obvious that it depends on the particular situation in the issues discussed here.
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KTG
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/29 13:31
I've no doubt there's more than enough room for lies, and if we continue you will present more than one.
I've deliberately killed plenty of animals. Have you ever deliberately killed a warm blooded animal? I've also contributed to the deaths of plenty that
I didn't kill myself, like you have also. The difference is I'm more honest about it than you are.
Sometimes. Usually when I've done it, it was to prevent other animals from killing chickens.
I believe I sold a muskrat once. Damn, you people sure do NOT like to think! You want every situation to be the same, regardelss of what you're discussing, and in fact they are all different and dependant on particular situations.
Sometimes meat involves more death than veggies and sometimes it doesn't.
Sometimes farm animals have terrible lives and sometimes they have decent or good ones.
Sometimes animals suffer in leghold traps and sometimes they don't.
Sometimes people trap animals for profit and sometimes they trap them because they're destructive.
I didn't go to the website and don't intend to, and even without going already told you about some conditions when traps don't harm animals.
That's a lie, and you probably have enough intelligence to realise it. I'd like to see some examples of things I've written that you consider to be lies.
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studboyx
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re:The Truth about Trapping? - 2006/10/29 16:27
I had already put down your remarks to aggression Derek. Like me and all sanctimonious ARs we all suffer from this defect. The cause - no meat in our diet.
Well, someone has to have 'a go' at the side this evening - no bugger else seems to be interested. perhaps they have exhausted their cache of lies and need a little time to re-charge their sad shagged out batteries. You say ~~jonnie~~ is finished, fair enough he clearly demonstrates this fact on a daily basis. The quantity is still there, but the quality is lacking. Either you are getting smarter or ~~jonnie~~is over the hill.
I can remember, perhaps a couple of years ago, when you could both argue all night and in to the early hours, not so these days. For or five postings each and the job's over. Dementia is a can happen to anyone so I will not labour the subject.
I put his most welcome absence this evening down to one of two things.
(a) It is his night for the clinic.
(b) He is again under lock and key. This time caught at the Bureu-de-Change tying to pass one of his forged credit cards under the name of Toulouse -
Lautrec.
That's me for this evening, off work tomorrow on killer activities - cleaning up the back garden see how many CDs I can cause. Should keep sick rick happy.
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