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Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/11 08:39
You have several times expressed the fervent hope that your grandson grow up to be homosexual. You claim, unpersuasively, that it's so you might have a better relationship with him, presumably than you imagine you would have if he were normal.
That's a lie. The reason is, you know your son will consider that a terrible result. You want your grandson to be homosexual only as a vile, small-minded, vengeful way of "getting back" at your son. That's obvious to everyone.
You pretend that your son is solely responsible for the poisoned relationship between the two of you.
Bullshit. If readers knew only of your filthy hope that your grandson be homosexual, they'd know enough to see that you bear huge fault for the shitty relationship you have with your son. Of course, they know much more than that: they know that you abandoned your son repeatedly and in multiple ways when he was a very small boy. Your moral and emotional abandonment of him date from the very beginning.
When are you going to address this topic, Karen?
You've brought it up, voluntarily; you have no privacy interest in it. Why can't you admit that you are afraid of your son's reaction if he were to learn of your hope for his son?
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punkerbruhaha
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/11 13:13
<snip>
Indeed. Note that I was trying to help the mouse, to free it, using the information I had been given as to the most effective method. It was my first experience with a glue trap. Note also -- as you will not, of course -- that the experience I got through this tragedy enabled me to save the other live mice I encountered in glue traps (by taking them to the vet and paying full price for vet care for them), and gave me the moral force to persuade my entire company to eliminate glue traps entirely as company policy. I agree this episode was a tragedy, and had I had the experience with glue traps I now have, I would have acted differently.
But, of course, you do not present the full story, and thus your version is a lie by omission -- Jonnie's perpetual tactic.
Try honesty, jonnie. It's remarkable what it will do for your character and peace of mind. I know.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/11 17:24
No, you attacked the character of John Mercer on numerous occasions, and never seem to have learned from your mistakes, as he drubbed you every time, and you kept coming back for more. In February 2001, when you began:
Tomorrow is Ash Wednesday. After prayer and thought, I feel honesty compels me to admit publicly that I have no answer to the long argument here in recent weeks.
I cannot defend my belief that my involvement in collateral deaths is less unethical than others' choices. I hereby admit I am wrong, and I feel my only honorable course is to withdraw from this
you *seemed* to have learned from your mistakes, but you hadn't, and you stupidly came back some 4 or 5 months later.
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parrishalan
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/11 18:18
The mouse probably died more humanely by drowning than continuing to be stuck there miserably in that glue trap anyway.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/11 21:53
No, Karen. That's one thing you decidedly do NOT know, and on current form, never will. You certainly aren't being honest with your son by concealing from him your hope that his son develop into a homosexual. You are not being honest with us about your abandonment of your son.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/12 01:43
<snip>
See - another lie. I've told jonnie this wasn't true.
I never had a job "shampooing cats." <snip>
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/12 01:58
See what I wrote in some reply about her arrogant belief that she can stage-manage the entire process.
That's how a *normal* person, one who isn't suffering from both a severe character defect and towering arrogance, might approach it. I honestly don't think
Karen can do it.
Karen was in her late 30s, Rubystars. She had a university degree, and graduate studies as well. In nearly 20 years of adult life, with a college degree, most people manage to find better work than shampooing cats.
If having a relationship with her grandson requires taking ANY responsibility for mending the relationship with her son, then she will forgo a relationship with her grandson. Karen is that arrogant and that badly damaged.
How can her son have abandoned her, when she wasn't in his life for him to abandon??? It makes no sense.
I doubt he took offense.
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parrishalan
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/12 05:04
<snip>
Just because someone has a bad moral position on one issue doesn't mean that everything else they say about morality is wrong. For example, she and I have totally opposite positions on the morality/normalcy of homosexuality.
However, I'm sure that Rat would agree with me that boiling cats alive is a sick and immoral thing to do. I think it's best to take things point by point.
Now if she's coming off as trying to be morally superior to the rest of us, then that would be more relevant. Is she trying to do that?
It may be, but it's a decision she has to make. One that she'll have to live with.
It won't hurt you either way whether she does or she doesn't. It could have serious consequences for her life and her relationships there.
I agree with you here. It IS morally repulsive to wish such a thing on another person, especially her own grandson!
She should acknowledge that this is an evil wish and a hateful one (to herself, not necessarily to you).
I doubt she will though.
<snip>
If this is true then it sounds like they both need some kind of counseling to heal their relationship.
I've been watching Dr. Phil a lot and I don't agree with everything he says but his program deals a lot with family type issues and conflicts (including between parents and grown children). I'm thinking maybe if she can't afford counseling right now she could look on his site or watch his show for a while and she might learn some things.
He has never said anything against homosexuality in particular so that might be one resource she could look into for information about family conflicts that wouldn't be judgemental or threatening.
http://www.drphil.com
The information on the site helped a married couple I know to work on their relationship so it might help Rat to work on her relationship to her son too.
I know I've learned a lot myself from watching it.
It would be preferable to get some help from a family counselor that can talk to them directly though.
<snip>
That would hurt almost any parent, to know their child has a problem like that. It's too bad, IMO, that it wouldn't also hurt Rat to know her grandson would have to go through the pain of being homosexual were her wish to come true.
Yes, if that's true, it is sick. I think she needs to find out why she has these feelings toward her son and see what she can do about letting go of them or mending the relationship.
<snip>
If she feels that way she should work on forgiving her son for whatever she feels that he did to cause those feelings in her. Forgiveness is very important.. not only for the person someone's angry with, but for the person themselves. I think it would help her not to hold so much anger inside.
<snip>
Debaters in these groups do hope to sway the opinions of others. That's the nature of these types of things, and it does happen. Dutch said she changed her opinion on veganism, and when I was in talk.origins looking for the answers about creationism/evolution they swayed me to the evolution side because evolution had all the evidence and creationism had none.
Some animal rights advocates were former hunters, etc. so it's not impossible.
<snip>
-Rubystars
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/12 05:15
<snip>
I wonder if she really wants that or if she really did mean that she wants to have a better relationship with him than she did with his dad.
It doesn't matter what caused the rift between her and her son as to whether she has a good relationship with her grandson, since they're two different people.
I don't think it's very kind to wish homosexuality on anyone though, since it is a marginalizing thing and not easy on the people who have it.]
Rat should know that since she says that she's part of an oppressed group that is fighting for equal rights.
to drag Rat's personal life all over Usenet. None of us have to agree or approve of what she does in her own family. I'm surprised that anyone really cares what she does.
Is this just a way of avoiding discussing her points as regarding animal rights, or did she bring up all this family stuff?
I haven't been around long enough to know the background of all this.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/12 09:27
Yes, you do, you context-snipping liar. You do it all the time. You're one of the worst about it.
Respond to Rubystars' points in replies to Rubystars' posts, you filthy fuck.
You had a job in your late 30s/early 40s doing scut work with cats. That is beyond dispute. The derisive
"shampooing cats" was only intended to get your goat, and it worked. You were doing scut work.
You had close to TWENTY FUCKING YEARS from the time you obtained your history degree to the time when you
DITCHED your son, you self-justifying skank. 20 years! What self-absorbed bullshit were you DOING all that time? You got a BA degree some time around age 21 or
22. Your son was born maybe when you were in your late
20s at the youngest. You ABANDONED HIM when you were in your late 30s, at the youngest. WHAT THE FUCK WERE
YOU DOING from age 21 or 22 to age 38 or 39?
You were not professionally trained. You did scut work at the Albecracker zoo, too, cleaning cages and the like.
You have taken ZERO responsibility for what went wrong with the relationship in the first place, so you have taken ZERO responsibility to mend it. You refuse to acknowedge what you did to poison it. You abandoned your son.
You were physically present, after being physically absent for a long time. You did not *raise* your son. Apparently, no one did.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/12 11:56
<snip>
Mainly, working as a certified, professionally-trained zookeeper.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/12 14:01
<snip>
No, it was not. That is a lie.
You simply cannot avoid lying about me. You are pathological about it.
Try truth, jonnie. It's remarkable what honesty will do to give you a clean conscience. You should try it sometime.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/12 14:18
Actually, I think it does matter. Her son has made pretty clear that he doesn't want much to do with
Karen. I am quite certain he wouldn't want ANYTHING to do with her, if he knew that she fervently hopes the grandson grows up to be homosexual.
That's what Usual Suspect has pointed out, as well.
It's part of the standard dogma trotted out by homosexuals who claim that homosexuality isn't a choice: why would anyone, they rhetorically wonder, choose to be part of a marginalized, hated group?
Karen knows full well that marginalization and opprobrium will *always* attach to homosexuality and homosexuals, even if some "progress" is made on issues like "gay" marriage. She is expressing a hope that her grandson develop into a marginalized, hated person.
I carefully elaborated it in another post, entitled
"Karen Winter's abandonment of her son, and why it matters". The sordid details of her personal life don't matter, in and of themselves; what matters is the
ONGOING responsibility-shirking that underlies it.
She has volunteered it. How the hell else would I know about it?
I'll help you out.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/12 17:38
That is correct.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/12 21:25
That's a terrible claim.  Is there a google link you can give me to this confession?
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/13 00:31
Certainly no more scut work than computer-programming, especially since I was researching and writing the placards with information on the animal species for the public. A form of teaching, I suppose.
It paid the rent, put food on the table, paid for my kid's clothes and other necessities, and a few extras like vacations and toys.
I was doing so.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/13 04:17
That was one of your job responsibilities, probably the main one. It was low-paid, unskilled scut work. You had a college degree, plus a lot of time in graduate school, and for all intents and purposes, you were shampooing cats. You had abandoned your son, so you had the luxury, as it were, of CHOOSING not to find higher paid work.
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And So's Your Mom....
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Fallout Boy
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/13 04:22
It was too late to do it in that way. Any right-thinking person would realize that. You didn't improve it, anyway, you seriously worsened it.
You didn't want your son. It's obvious. You didn't want him, and you abandoned him.
You and your second hump were doing something badly wrong if you had the boy from age two, before the age of his conscious memory, and couldn't work out a healthy relationship in which he liked his step-dad.
You always make bad choices, Karen - bad choices in men, bad choices in career, bad choices in geography.
There's an unpleasant consistency to you.
Where you had no business going. This was all about personal fulfillment for you, not about trying to do the best you could for your son.
Yes, by you. Children don't grow up having attachment problems - how was it you put it? - if they're given parental love and attention.
Oh, yes, here it is:
He hated my second husband -- my son has always had problems with any kind of emotional closeness.
CLASSIC case of blaming the victim. Your son was a victim of moral and emotional neglect, and you blame him for it!
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Fallout Boy
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/13 05:05
Self-absorption. That work was scut work, too. You had a son to rear.
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re:Stop running away from it, Karen - 2006/12/13 05:26
Actually, I think it does matter. Her son has made pretty clear that he doesn't want much to do with
Karen. I am quite certain he wouldn't want ANYTHING to do with her, if he knew that she fervently hopes the grandson grows up to be homosexual.
That's what Usual Suspect has pointed out, as well.
It's part of the standard dogma trotted out by homosexuals who claim that homosexuality isn't a choice: why would anyone, they rhetorically wonder, choose to be part of a marginalized, hated group?
Karen knows full well that marginalization and opprobrium will *always* attach to homosexuality and homosexuals, even if some "progress" is made on issues like "gay" marriage. She is expressing a hope that her grandson develop into a marginalized, hated person, merely in order to satisfy her unwholesome, unwarranted, evil wish for "revenge" against her son [need I add].
I carefully elaborated it in another post, entitled
"Karen Winter's abandonment of her son, and why it matters". The sordid details of her personal life don't matter, in and of themselves; what matters is the
ONGOING responsibility-shirking that underlies it.
She has volunteered it. How the hell else would I know about it?
I'll help you out.
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Good quote from Mill
And So's Your Mom....
consider your own mortality
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