punkerbruhaha
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The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/26 16:10
Why not? If they didn't think they could improve their lives, why would they immigrate?
If you can't make yourself understood, it's hard to make a living.
Here's a challenge. Rather than navel-gazing in Ireland next
Well, our "radical" parish sponsors a group who go to Juarez each year with Habitat for Humanity to build houses for poor families, and if we can get time off, Swan and I may go. We work with a wide variety of outreach programs, such as the local youth center and the local Rape Crisis Center and battered women's shelter, and food bank.
Our parish, our "little Type A adobe in the Arroyo" as our priest says, is highly committed to social action. Swan and I have been asked to serve as head of the social outreach/Pastoral Care committee for next year, and have accepted. Don't play the game of "navel-gazing" vs social action with us, bubbe -- "radical" Episcopalians are often the ones most involved with the poor and oppressed (including gays).
Next month, Fr. Murphy will be leading a four-week class on Celtic
Spirituality, which we will be attending. I should have some insights for you afterward.
I think I've defined what the major division is on the question of equal rights for gays in the Church. Those who support equal rights accept modern science/sociology and see gayness as an orientation, like heterosexuality, and feel that within that
God-given orientation, gay people can live by the same standards in same-sex relationships that straights can in opposite-sex relationships. This understanding of orientation was not available until at least the mid-nineteenth century, so it was not available to the authors of the Bible. Those who oppose equal rights see homosexuality as an act, not an expression of a God-given nature in love. I agree there are gay acts which are sinful; I do not accept that all gay acts are sinful, any more than all straight acts are sinful.
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punkerbruhaha
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re:The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/26 20:31
<snip>
At the time they immigrate.
<snip>
The point is -- some do, some don't. There are immigrants who become wildly successful*, immigrants who make a comfortable living, and wretched immigrants who end up as sweatshop labor and day laborers and maids. Immigrants are PEOPLE, not a monolithic class, and they vary in their success. But the ones who don't speak the language and don't have any professional qualifications which are recognized in this country generally do not do terribly well at gaining wealth.
<snip>
*The current governor of California, for example....
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cdcollectr
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re:The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/27 01:41
No, that wasn't why at all, you filthy lying crack-smoking whore.
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newtrier
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re:The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/27 04:12
That's not the issue. The issue is, How do they do when they get here and work? In the aggregate, they do exceedingly well.
Ipse dixit. Many churches have ministries to the poor. BTW, how can you call homosexuals oppressed? Everytime I turn on the tv now there's another homosexual-oriented program. I'm cancelling cable.
...is a theory, a hypothesis. It is not scientific. If you're "born that way," maybe it can be cured in utero like other afflictions. If it's a choice, then the behavior can be modified.
That's because you choose to ignore what the Bible says about marriage and sexual relations.
So? Have you ever been to Africa? Central America (beyond border towns like Juarez)?
Bootleg liquor. The Kennedys still get money from the sale of imported liquor. The filthy rich bastards.
Because you raised the issue in *contemporary* terms. Now you want to engage in sophistry and take us back to Pangea. Spare us.
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Lobst
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re:The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/27 08:54
Whether immigrants or long-term citizens, in the US non-whites are more likely to be poor than Caucasians .
'One out of every six American children (16.3 percent)
was poor in 2001. By race and ethnicity, 30.2 percent of Black children, 28.0 percent of Hispanic children,
11.5 percent of Asian and Pacific Islander children, and
9.5 percent of Non-Hispanic White children were poor.
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cdcollectr
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re:The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/27 09:07
Most do flourish far better than they did at home. As far as those few who don't, those are just the quirks of life.
False. Generally, they DO quite well, once they acquire language and vocational skills.
You're still straying far from the original point, of course, which is easy for a slacking marginal like you whose time is worth next to nothing. The original point was that the filthy lying skanky slut Lesley offered a statistic about the percentage of children in
America who are immigrants as "support" for her claim that a similar percentage of ALL American children are poor. He "evidence" was evidence only of her wretched inability. It was right down there with offering data on Argentina's TOTAL trade to support her fuckwitted claim about BRAZIL'S exports of beef.
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newtrier
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re:The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/27 09:21
That's not what I wrote. "Working hard" isn't necessarily "hard," it's a matter of one's priorities. In the case of many immigrants, it means working a job or two and attending college rather than joining a fraternity and getting drunk every night.
Ipse dixit. That very well occurs in certain cultural settings, but not all. That help also only goes so far: those who take loans are not only expected to pay them back, but to get in position to help make more loans themselves. That occurs not only in immigrant communities, but in established ones as well. The resurgence of black entrepreneurialism in the US is based on the same system of group accountability. Blacks are
50% more likely than whites and Hispanics to start up a business now.
No, I already know my earlier challenge to her will go unheeded. She and her type have a comfort zone. Working in Juarez by day and sleeping in
El Paso by night is comfortable. Living and working in the interior takes conviction.
How am I being uncharitable, much less "un-christian," by encouraging greater works -- indeed, works in central Africa over navel-gazing in
Ireland?
Every time I turn the channel, there's a promo for that show on Bravo,
Ellen Degenerate, or something else shoving it in my face. I thought they were only 10%; there's no need to have a homo on every show. Next thing you know, they'll replace Jillian Barbieri on Fox's Sunday pre-game show with some transvestite.
You're the chief sophist around here, Bob.
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Lobst
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re:The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/27 13:48
"All cruelty springs from weakness." (Seneca, 4BC-AD65)
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skyrider
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re:The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/27 15:27
It was not. You said that AFTER they immigrate, they do not flourish economically:
But I would suspect the vast majority of people who leave their native land and move to a new country where they don't even speak the language...are not flourishing economically [at any point after they arrive].
Why do you lie when you are so incompetent at it?
Exactly, you stupid bitch. The fact is, they DO flourish economically.
As long as leftists like you don't insist on "helping" them (huh) to "preserve their culture", by which you mean to keep them PRISONERS of bad culture, they'll learn the language. Bilingual education is perhaps the most evil plague ever visited upon immigrants.
"Better off than they were in their native country" is the relevant definition.
Exactly the point: unlike what the lying Irish 70p blowjob artist Lesley claimed, immigrants do not generally remain poor, even if they arrive poor.
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Lobst
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re:The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/27 18:14
"All cruelty springs from weakness." (Seneca, 4BC-AD65)
You're very weak, ball.
Only to give a figure to 'one fifth' of all US children.
'One out of every six American children (16.3 percent)
was poor in 2001. By race and ethnicity, 30.2 percent of Black children, 28.0 percent of Hispanic children,
11.5 percent of Asian and Pacific Islander children, and
9.5 percent of Non-Hispanic White children were poor.'
http://www.childrensdefense.org/fs_cpfaq_facts.php (posted in the same thread)
Yes, a _similar percentage_, one-fifth, or 14 million, sleazebag.
National Center for Children in Poverty (NCCP) -
http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/nccp/
Uses demographic research and program and policy analyses to identify and promote strategies that reduce young child poverty and that improve the lives of poor young children. "There are over
14 million children living in poverty in the United States. More than
5 million of them are under age six. The young child poverty rate is significantly higher in the United States than in other Western industrialized nations."
http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Issues/Poverty/Hunger/Regional/United_States/.
'More than one-fifth of the children in the country that is supposed to be the leader of the free world live below the poverty line, ..
A country that launches a war at a cost of hundreds of billions of dollars when it lacks the ability to care for millions of homeless people and poor children cannot consider itself enlightened or a liberator.
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punkerbruhaha
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re:The "navel-gazing" Social Activist - 2007/01/27 19:44
<snip>
Yes, that's true of every immigrant group I know about. I was very interested to learn when I was in college that one of my history professors (one of the examples of successful immigrants) came from a little town in (iirc) Minnesota where he had not learned to speak English until he was well into second grade -- his first language was Norwegian!
In my grandmother's case it was German. That's one reason we'd have to establish a time-frame for the definition of "immigrant."
<snip>
We just moved here in September. This year's trip was the month before. We couldn't have gone this year.
But it sounds worthwhile for next year.
<snip>
I'd love to see him try it -- it would no doubt give him a new perspective on the status of gays. Sort of a "Black Like Me" experience. I've actually had the experience of living in a city as a straight woman and then as a Lesbian, and there's a tremendous difference in the way you are treated by others, and in one's own awareness. Neighborhoods that were quite safe before suddenly become dangerous. Imagine a situation where your
sold in the "Adult" section of the bookstore -- if you can get it at all. Imagine a situation where the police are called to remove you from a hotel dance-floor because you are dancing (not touching) with your same-sex partner -- after the bouncer refuses to return your driver's license (which says you are 36 ). Imagine the endless host of major and minor indignities and threats that gay people are daily exposed to -- and then try to claim gays aren't oppressed. Good luck,
Usual -- let me know how well you fare. I'll visit you in the hospital if you get fag-bashed by the police, as my foster-son did in sunny Florida. Or attend your funeral if you get killed, like Matthew
Shepherd.
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