dcro
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Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me. - 2004/04/01 13:14
Dutch has gone through a change in personal growth and concluded that our actions don't say we approve of modern medicine and how it got here. He starts by claiming it does, but he's changed his mind completely and claims to "have the sense now to see that is not a reasonable position."
[start Dutch]
Dutch 2003-12-04
My response was;
Excellent! Then it should be clear to you that my actions don't say I approve of animals being used in labs for my treatments and meds, either, dork!
My actions as a consumer of vegetables don't say I approve of the farmers' collateral deaths, either, dork!
Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me.
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Rivermen
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re:Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me. - 2004/04/01 15:26
'Altogether, about 50% of the Earth's land surface is grazed by domestic livestock --'* -- and that represents _extensive_ elimination of predators and herbivorous competitors. In addition, 'while about 10% (3.7 billion acres) of the Earth's terrestrial surface is cropland, nearly half of this land is used to grow food for livestock. '*.
*http://www.apnm.org/waste_of_west/Chapter6.html
Do your sums, and remember that crops -can- be farmed in a wildlife friendly manner.
"If you step back and look at the data, the optimum amount of red meat you eat should be zero."
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mazzelloni
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re:Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me. - 2004/04/01 17:37
If only we could be so lucky.
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Rivermen
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re:Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me. - 2004/04/01 18:35
YOU TOO STUPID AND DISRESPECTFUL TO EXTEND TEXT WRAP
AFTER ALL THIS TIME, or what, DITCH?
Is your erroneous belief that sacrificing animals by the billion, will somehow benefit you (never mind injuring, even killing you), good?
To those chronically self-deluded, anything you like is 'imaginable'.
I'm talking about the real world though, not your imaginary world.
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AIJI
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re:Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me. - 2004/04/01 19:24
You might as well, because even though he's been told dozens of times how to use his "Enter" key or to extend the line wrap in his settings, it's still beyond his capabilities to understand why or even what you mean. He's got to be the most stupid son of a bitch on this group, not to mention the scruffiest.
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dcro
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re:Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me. - 2004/04/01 23:58
You claim you "have the sense now to see" that your original statement is not a reasonable position. That being so, you now have no argument against anyone who refutes;
"If you continue to support the medical system by accepting all existing treatments and medications, your actions say that you approve of modern medicine and that means how we got here." Dutch 2002-11-24
Says the idiot who claims his actions don't say that he approves of modern medicine and how it got here. If it's "not a reasonable position" for you, why shouldn't it be a reasonable position for me, hypocrite?
If so-called ARAs want to claim we can use animals in labs at their chosen cost to benefit ratio of 1000:1, then they deserve being attacked for the frauds they are.
I stick by what I say, without exception to anyone or anything. I don't make categorical claims and then throw my ethics away when faced with the reality of my position.
I know. "*While we* continue to support the medical system by accepting all existing treatments and medications, *our* actions
*don't* say that *we* approve of modern medicine and that means how we got here." either. *my edit* It wouldn't be a reasonable position for either of us.
I don't approve of the use of animals in labs, so when accepting all existing meds and treatments, it doesn't say I approve of it. Way to go ....
You've just concluded that they don't when accepting treatments and meds from the medical system, so you have no argument against those who accept fruit and veg from the food production system either. It wouldn't be a reasonable position to assume I approve of modern food production and way farmers produce it. "That's personal growth."
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Rivermen
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re:Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me. - 2004/04/02 13:09
Grazing animals entails eliminating potential predators and herbivorous competitors. Organic farming does not require tilling and spraying, nor killing wildlife.
Report Favors Cholesterol Drugs, But Doctors Say Diet Is
By THOMAS M. BURTON
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL ..
The authors of the much-publicized government cholesterol report last month did recommend dietary changes. But physicians like Dr. Roizen feel the report didn't push hard enough. It recommended a diet like the American Heart
Association's "Step II" 30%-fat diet, which includes foods like chicken, fish and olive oil. The report didn't recommend more stringent, and even vegetarian, diets for sicker people with higher risk factors or advanced coronary artery disease.
*"Nobody thinks those diets can be applied to the general population," says Peter J. Savage, acting director of epidemiology at the National Heart, Lung and Blood
Institute, which appointed the government panel.* ..
Most doctors don't have the dietary knowledge. "Physicians aren't so well-versed in it, so they haven't spent as much effort in dietary control as they might," says David P. Faxon, president-elect of the American Heart Association and
University of Chicago cardiologist. ...'
http://www.heart-disease-bypass-surgery.com/data/articles/119.htm
* Why not?
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Rivermen
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re:Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me. - 2004/04/02 15:02
<..>
Death by Medicine
A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more harm than good. The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million.1
Dr. Richard Besser, of the CDC, in 1995, said the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections was 20 million. Dr. Besser, in 2003, now refers to tens of millions of unnecessary antibiotics.2, 2a
The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million.3 The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million.4 The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. It is evident that the
American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the
United States. The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate, 553,251.5 .....................'
http://mercola.com/2003/nov/26/death_by_medicine.htm
" Isn't man an amazing animal? He kills wildlife - birds, kangaroos, deer, all kinds of cats, coyotes, beavers, groundhogs, mice, foxes, and dingoes - by the millions in order to protect his domestic animals and their feed. Then he kills domestic animals by the billions and eats them. This in turn kills man by the millions, because eating all those animals leads to degenerative and fatal health conditions like heart disease, kidney disease, and cancer. So then man tortures and kills millions more animals to look for cures for these diseases. ..'. " (from the preface of his book: Old MacDonald's Factory Farm)
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dcro
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re:Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me. - 2004/04/02 16:08
This thread has gone the same way as all the others you've snipped and run from, coward. It's clear you can't deal with the implications of what you've just written.
In a single stroke, and to wriggle from your embarrassing position, you have undone all your hard work in trying to claim our actions say we approve of modern medicine. Well done!
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dcro
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re:Way to go, Dutch, you just made my argument for me. - 2004/04/02 17:01
You claim you "have the sense now to see" that your original statement is not a reasonable position. That being so, you now have no argument against anyone who refutes;
"If you continue to support the medical system by accepting all existing treatments and medications, your actions say that you approve of modern medicine and that means how we got here." Dutch 2002-11-24
Says the idiot who claims his actions don't say that he approves of modern medicine and how it got here. If it's "not a reasonable position" for you, why shouldn't it be a reasonable position for me, hypocrite?
If so-called ARAs want to claim we can use animals in labs at their chosen cost to benefit ratio of 1000:1, then they deserve being attacked for the frauds they are.
I stick by what I say, without exception to anyone or anything. I don't make categorical claims and then throw my ethics away when faced with the reality of my position.
I know. "*While we* continue to support the medical system by accepting all existing treatments and medications, *our* actions
*don't* say that *we* approve of modern medicine and that means how we got here." either. *my edit* It wouldn't be a reasonable position for either of us.
I don't approve of the use of animals in labs, so when accepting all existing meds and treatments, it doesn't say I approve of it. Way to go ....
You've just concluded that they don't when accepting treatments and meds from the medical system, so you have no argument against those who accept fruit and veg from the food production system either. It wouldn't be a reasonable position to assume I approve of modern food production and way farmers produce it. "That's personal growth.
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