Rock Topper
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Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/05 04:40
Plants have been shown to respond when spoken to, they have been shown to respond to affection by growing larger blooms and more fruit. They have been shown to move away from things that will damage them and have been shown to feel pain, just like an animal does. In short the only difference between a plant and an animal is that most animals are grown for food, where most plants grow wild.
Make you a deal...I wont tell you how disgusting your tofu looks if you will leave me alone about my steak. Sides, if what you say is true, then you really should want us to eat as much meat as possible as that way we will all get heart trouble and die and you veggies and vegans will be left...oh wait...you will die also just like the runner awhile back that ate a veggie lifestyle and ran marathons, and dies of a heart attack for not having enough fat byproducts in his diet as his body required him to have for a healthy lifestyle.
Lets just call it a draw as your never going to win this argument.
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Trotsky is right about the corncobs...
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iamh3
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/05 13:17
i believe that all things living have a soul- be it plants or animals, as do the hindus.  i think hindus are vegans mainly because man is an animal. "why kill another animal for food when plants suffice?" is the philosophy they (hindus) go by. hindus have a deep respect for all things living- be it animals or plants. just as some animals (cows, monkeys, rats, etc) are revered, some trees and plants (tulasi, etc.) are also revered. however, the human body needs food as fuel- thus vegetables and fruits are consumed to serve this purpose. only the sufficient number of plants are "killed" for the survival of the human body- in accordance with hindu beliefs. please understand that i do not think it is "disgusting" to eat meat. i am simply telling u the logic behind the whole vegan thingy with referance to hinduism`s (sanathana dharma) philosophy.  hope i cleared some stuff up. yours` dru
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madeleine
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/05 18:32
Which runner were you thinking of, perhaps Jim Fixx?
If you *are* referring to Fixx, you obviously are unaware that he started running at a relatively late age. He had been overweight and a heavy smoker (two packs a day for 20 years) before taking up running. He had a family history of heart disease (his father died at age 43). He was a Type-A (high stress) person. To the best of my knowledge, he was not actually a vegetarian. Friends and colleagues noted afterward that Fixx`s diet was hardly on the healthy side of things -- he would often wolf down doughnuts (which are, contrary to what you alleged, quite high in "fat byproducts") and other unhealthy items shortly after running long distances. He was, by all accounts I`ve read and discussed with people who knew him, as compulsive at eating as he was at running.
His autopsy revealed heavily clogged coronary arteries. The autopsy also indicated that Fixx had suffered heart attacks previously. He apparently ignored the signs his body was giving him.
If you don`t believe me, why don`t you read up on his life and death and autopsy. Here are some links to help you: http://www.startribune.com/stories/1556/1606280.html
http://www.coachgumby.com/pdf/DoctrineCD.pdf I would also direct you to Peter Kwiterovich (MD)`s BEYOND CHOLESTEROL: THE JOHNS HOPKINS COMPLETE GUIDE FOR AVOIDING HEART DISEASE, pp. 78-79.
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kdringg
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/06 00:31
It`s very interesting that a great Indian (Hindu) scientist of early 20th century J.C. Bose first demonstrated that plants suffer equal sensation pains or feelings as animals.
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alterego
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/06 00:46
WHY HINDUS DON`T EAT MEAT
Excerpts from Hinduism Today
Besides being an expression of compassion for animals, vegetarianism is followed for ecological and health rationales Hindus and non-Hindus -- have made the personal decision to stop eating the flesh of other creatures. There are five major motivations for such a decision:
1. The Dharmic Law Reason duty in fulfilling religious obligations to God and God`s creation as defined by Vedic scripture.
2. The Karmic Consequences Reason have Karmic consequences. By involving oneself in the cycle of inflicting injury, pain and death, even indirectly by eating other creatures, one must in the future experience in equal measure the suffering caused.
3. The Spiritual Reason we ingest affects our consciousnes, emotions and experiential patterns. If one wants to live in higher consciousness, in peace and happiness and love for all creatures, then he cannot eat meat, fish, shellfish, fowl or eggs. By ingesting the grosser chemistries of animal foods, one introduces into the body and mind anger, jealousy, anxiety, suspicion and a terrible fear of death, all of which are locked into the the flesh of the butchered creatures. For these reasons, vegetarians live in higher consciousness and meat-eaters abide in lower consciousness.
4. The Health Reason easier to digest, provides a wider ranger of nutrients and imposes fewer burdens and impurities on the body. Vegetarians are less susceptible to all the major diseases that afflict contemporary humanity, and thus live longer, healthier, more productive lives. They have fewer physical complaints, less frequent visits to the doctor, fewer dental problems and smaller medical bills. Their immune system is stronger, their bodies are purer, more refined and skin more beautiful.
5. The Ecological Reason escalating loss of species, destruction of ancient rainforests to create pasture lands for live stock, loss of topsoils and the consequent increase of water impurities and air pollution have all been traced to the single fact of meat in the human diet. No decision that we can make as individuals or as a race can have such a dramatic effect on the improvement of our planetary ecology as the decision not to eat meat. WORLD RELIGIONS, observes, "Despite popular knowledge of meat-eating`s adverse effects, the nonvegetarian diet became increasingly widespread among the Hindus after the two major invasions by foreign powers, first the Muslims and later the British. With them came the desire to be `civilized,` to eat as did the Saheeb. Those atually trained in Vedic knowledge, however, never adopted a meat-oriented diet, and the pious Hindu still observes vegetarian principles as a matter of religious duty. India is clear from the earliest Vedic texts. This was observed by the ancient traveler Megasthenes and also by Fa-Hsien, a Chinese Buddhist monk who, in the fifth century, traveled to India in order to obtain authentic copies of the scriptures. way of life. In the MAHABHARAT, for instance, the great warrior Bheeshm explains to Yuddhishtira, eldest of the Paandav princes, that the meat of animals is like the flesh of one`s own son. Similarly, the MANUSMRITI declares that one should `refrain from eating all kinds of meat,` for such eating involves killing and and leads to Karmic bondage (Bandh) [5.49]. Elsewhere in the Vedic literature, the last of the great Vedic kings, Maharaja Parikshit, is quoted as saying that `only the animal- killer cannot relish the message of the Absolute Truth [Shrimad Bhagvatam 10.1.4].`" the flesh of other creatures lives in misery in whatever species he may take his birth. MAHABHARAT 115.47 faultlessness of limbs, long life, understanding, mental and physical strength and memory should abstain from acts of injury. MAHABHARAT 18.115.8 indicating that they should never be slaughtered. Who, then could slay them? Surely, one who kills a cow or a bull commits a heinous crime. MAHABHARAT, SHANTIPARV 262.47 his wealth; he who eats flesh does so by enjoying its taste; the killer does Hinsa by actually tying and killing the animal. Thus, there are three forms of killing: he who brings flesh or sends for it, he who cuts off the limbs of an animal, and he who purchases, sells or cooks flesh and eats it -- all of these are to be considered meat-eaters. MAHABHARAT, ANU 115.40 in all that is -- immortal in the field of mortality -- he sees the truth. And when a man sees that the God in himself is the same God in all that is, he hurts not himself by hurting others. Then he goes, indeed, to the highest path. BHAGVAD GEETA 13.27-28 Tapas. Ahinsa is the greatest gift. Ahinsa is the highest self-control. Ahinsa is the highest sacrifice. Ahinsa is the highest power. Ahinsa is the highest friend. Ahinsa is the highest truth. Ahinsa is the highest teaching. MAHABHARAT 18.116.37-41 on how it may avoid killing any creature. TIRUKURAL 324 prayerful adoration of those who refuse to slaughter and savor meat. TIRUKURAL 260 life, for killing leads to every other sin. TIRUKURAL 312, 321 one who wields a weapon and one who feasts on a creature`s flesh. TIRUKURAL 253
Copyright (C) 1993, Himalayan Academy, All Rights
may not be republished in any form without the prior written authority of Himalayan Academy. http://www.hindu.org This is an authorized reproduction.
Jai Maharaj http://www.mantra.com/jai Om Shanti
Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
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WHY HINDUS DON`T EAT MEAT
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Jobbing_R
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/06 06:41
eats is not the final exam on Planet Earth. It is being a balanced and loving Human Being. If we get this far, we may make it as a species. The Food Debate can go on forever if we are using our minds, Ego`s and beliefs as a measure of "who`s right". However( my opinion here).... The body requires absorbable nutrients that can be used, assimilated and toxins removed. Those nutirents must contain water, enzymes, life force, moisture and chlorophyll. The body does best(chemically speaking) when the pH is more alkaline.and hydrated..... Let the reader draw their own conclusions here. Whatever anyone choses to eat, if it contains these above nutrients....they can live a long sure life, indeed.
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vinylbunnie
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/06 09:21
From an old copy of Hinduism today (" www.HinduismToday.com ".):
"?most compelling argument against meat eating is that humans are physiologically not suited for a carnivorous diet. The book `Food for the Spirit, Vegetarianism in the World Religions`, summarizes this point of view as follows: "Many nutritionists, biologists and physiologists offer convincing evidence that humans are in fact not meant to eat flesh?" Here are seven facts in support of this view:
"Physiologically, people are more akin to plant-eaters, foragers and grazers, such as monkeys, elephants and cows, than to carnivora such as dogs, tigers and leopards.
"For example, carnivora do not sweat through their skin; body heat is controlled by rapid breathing and extrusion of the tongue. Vegetarian animals, on the other hand, have sweat pores for heat control and the elimination of impurities.
"Carnivora have long teeth and claws for holding and killing prey; vegetarian animals have short teeth and no claws.
"The saliva of carnivora contains no ptyalin and cannot predigest starches; that of vegetarian animals contains ptyalin for the predigestion of starches.
"Flesh-eating animals secrete large quantities of hydrochloric acid to help dissolve bones; vegetarian animals secrete little hydrochloric acid.
"The jaws of carnivora only open in an up and down motion; those of vegetarian animals also move sideways for additional kinds of chewing.
"Carnivora must lap liquids (like a cat); vegetarian animals take liquids in by suction through the teeth.
"There are many such comparisons, and in each case humans fit the vegetarian physiognomy. From a strictly physiological perspective, then, there are strong arguments that humans are not suited to a fleshy diet."
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hopesfall
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/06 10:32
If my family choose to eat meat then the animals that would be bred for our consumption would make us indirectly responsible for far greater suffering as they graze upon plant matter than our relatively limited consumption of plant matter at the moment,or doesn`t grass count as a plant.We are free to make a choice when it comes to what we eat (with some exceptions) and good luck to all you who choose meat but some of us didn`t,okay?
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Daemon
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/06 18:02
Flesh eating humans look human, vegetarians look like living dead people who should be put out of their misery!
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Panthaira
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/07 02:27
I don`t think Jai Maharaj will be impressed with that statement. Vallabhacharyas and Chaitanyas will also not agree with that.
BTW Is it true that the Shaiva traditionalists are meat eaters. I believe since Nepalis belong to the Shaiva zone they tend to be meat eaters. But what about the Shaiva dominated Kashmiris, Marathi/Konkans? IMHO Tamilians whether of the Smarta, Shaiva or Shri Vaishnava tradition, are vegans.
The Shaktists of Bengal consume fish, which probably reflects their Shaivic influence.
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SlCKB0Y
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/07 07:30
....... but then one cannot help notice that vegetarians or vegans do
unlike a few meat-eaters
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vinylbunnie
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/07 15:18
As stated by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM),in their literature, "A vegetarian diet has been advocated by everyone from philosophers, such as Plato and Nietzsche, to political leaders, such as Benjamin Franklin and Gandhi, to modern pop icons such as Paul McCartney and Bob Marley. Science is also on the side of vegetarian foods. A multitude of studies have proven the health benefits of a vegetarian diet to be remarkable.
The PCRM literature lists a host of health benefits of a vegetarian diet, including the following:
Preventing cancer: "Numerous epidemiological and clinical studies have shown that vegetarians are nearly 50% less likely to die from cancer than non vegetarians."
Preventing heart disease and lowering blood pressure
Preventing and reversing diabetes
Preventing and alleviating gallstones, kidney stones and osteoporosis
Preventing and alleviating asthma
The PCRM is a nonprofit organization based in Washington, D.C., consisting of doctors and laypersons working together for compassionate and effective medical practice, research and health promotion. Founded in 1985, over 3,000 physicians support the PCRM. PCRM president Newal D. Barnard, M.D., is a popular speaker and the author of The Power of Your Plate.
PCRM unveiled a proposal to replace the Four Basic Food Groups. The Four Food Groups have been part of U.S. government recommendations since 1956, but promote dietary habits, which are largely responsible for the epidemics of heart disease, cancer, stroke and other serious illnesses in this country. The old four groups were meat, dairy, grains and fruits/vegetables. The ?New Four Food Groups` are grains, legumes, vegetables and fruits. Meat and dairy will lose their food group status [by this proposal]. The ?New Four Food Groups` represents a nutrition plan that is based on healthy; fiber-rich plant foods rather than the former emphasis on cholesterol-and-fat-laden foods. ?The meat and dairy groups were the principal sources of cholesterol and saturated fat, which is the biggest culprit in raising blood cholesterol,` says PCRM Nutritionist Virginia Messina, M.P.H., R.D. ?these foods are simply not necessary in the human diet.`
PCRM poster offers the following description of the four new food groups:
1. Whole grains include breads, pastas, rice, corn and all other grains. Note the emphasis on whole grains rather than refined grains. Build each of your meals around a hearty grain dish-grains are rich in fiber and other complex carbohydrates, as well as protein, B vitamins and zinc.
2. Vegetables are packed with nutrients; they provide vitamin C, beta-carotene, riboflavin and other vitamins, iron, calcium and fiber. Dark green, leafy vegetables such as broccoli, collards, kale, mustard and turnip greens, chicory or bok choy are especially good sources of these important nutrients. Dark yellow and orange vegetables such as carrots, winter squash, sweet potatoes and pumpkin provide extra beta-carotene. Include generous portions of a variety of vegetables in your diet.
3. Legumes, which is another name for beans, peas and lentils, are all good sources of fiber, protein, iron, calcium, zinc and B vitamins. This group also includes chickpeas, baked and refried beans, soymilk, tofu, tempeh and texturized vegetable protein.
4. Fruits are rich in fiber, vitamin C and beta-carotene. Be sure to include at least one serving each day of fruits that are high in vitamin C-citrus fruits, melons and strawberries are all good choices. Choose whole fruit over fruit juices, which don`t contain as much healthy fiber.
Common Dietary Concerns
Those considering a vegetarian diet generally worry about getting enough nutrients, since the belief that meat is a necessary part of keeping strong and healthy is still extremely widespread. Armed with decades of nutritional research data, the PCRM addresses this issue head-on:
"The fact is, it is very easy to have a well-balanced diet with vegetarian foods. Vegetarian foods provide plenty of protein. Careful combining of foods is not necessary. Any normal variety of plant foods provides more than enough protein for the body`s needs. Although there is somewhat less protein in a vegetarian diet than a meat-eater`s diet, this actually an advantage. Excess protein has been linked to kidney stones, osteoporosis, and possibly heart disease and some cancers. A diet focused on beans, whole grains and vegetables contains adequate amounts of protein without the ?overdose` most meat-eaters get."
Other concerns are allayed as follows:
"Calcium is easy to find in a vegetarian diet. Many dark, green leafy vegetables and beans are loaded with calcium, and some orange juices and cereals are calcium-fortified. Iron is plentiful in whole grains, beans and fruits."
Vitamin B12: There is a misconception that without eating meat one cannot obtain sufficient v. B12, which is an essential nutrient. This is simply not true. The PCRM advises: "Although cases of B12 deficiency are very uncommon, it is important to make sure that one has a reliable source of the vitamin. Good sources include all common multiple vitamins (including vegetarian vitamins), fortified cereals and fortified soy milk."
"During pregnancy one`s nutritional needs increase. The American Dietetic Association has found vegan diets adequate for fulfilling nutritional needs during pregnancy, but pregnant women and nursing mothers should supplement their diets with vitamins B12 and D.
"Vegetarian children also have high nutritional needs, but these, too, are met within a vegetarian diet. A vegetarian menu is ?life-extending.` As young children, vegetarians may grow more gradually, reach puberty somewhat later, and live substantially longer than do meat-eaters. Do be sure to include a reliable source of vitamin B12."
Besides the fortified cereals and soymilk mentioned above vitamin B12 sources that are widely available are multiple vitamins, brewers yeast and other potent dietary supplements.
Those interested in supporting or learning more about the work of the PCRM should write to PCRM, P.O. Box 6322, Washington, D.C., 20015.
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mute
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/07 17:17
All Tamils are not vegetarian either. In fact, I think 60% of them are non-vegeterians. recent phenomenon. Somebody told me some very conservative/religious family a few decades ago would not allow chicken at home, but would be fine with goat.
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mute
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Re:Now as for these Vegan nutcases...talk about eating corpses, you Vegan and Veggies are doing the same thing with plants! - 2005/06/07 22:02
With deepest respect, since Hinduism neither Khomeni or Pope John Paul II, no one dictates whether Hindus should be meat-eaters or vegetarians. Neither can you. You can be vegetarian and eating vegetables defintely healthy. But that has no direct relation with Hinduism. Anyway, if that is your definition of Hinduism, I won`t argue with you.
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